PS4: "The beginning of a new era of PlayStation"
Shuhei Yoshida talks about PS4 being a "transitional generation," reacts to low review scores, explains why 720p vs 1080p Call of Duty is "significant" and more
At The Standard hotel on the lower west side of Manhattan, it feels like Sony has created a fortress. Every floor is dominated by PS4 games and demos and even the elevators are decked out in PlayStation imagery. The launch of the PS4 is only hours away now. It's a big deal for Sony and the industry, and judging by what feels like all of Sony Computer Entertainment taking up residence in this hotel, it's clear that the company is making a statement: we're bringing the industry into the next generation and we're hoping to recapture our mojo from the PS2 days.
It's within this atmosphere that Sony cordially invited me (and full disclosure, paid for my accommodations) to interview Sony Computer Entertainment Worldwide Studios boss Shuhei Yoshida. The long-time Sony executive has been with SCE since the company's inception, so perhaps another console launch feels old-hat. The affable Yoshida certainly didn't make it look that way, however. Even in the face of less than stellar reviews for the PS4 launch games, Yoshida remained enthusiastic, and in classic console wars fashion managed to get in a few shots at the competition.
In the full discussion below, you'll read Yoshida's thoughts on the launch scores (which he joked afterwards that he was hoping I wouldn't ask him about), how PlayStation is being redefined in the PS4 era, why Drive Club had to be delayed, why graphics and 1080p resolution absolutely matter, and he explains his skepticism for Xbox One's cloud computing tech. It's a lengthy conversation but well worth the read to absorb Yoshida's refreshingly forthright answers.
Q: You've been with PlayStation from the very beginning, you've seen it all and played a part in the growth of the games business, so perhaps you're the best person to answer this question. How would you compare this launch to the previous hardware launches? Has it been harder or easier and why?
Shuhei Yoshida: I think this is the most organized launch we've had as a company. The launch of PS4 reminds me a lot of the launch of PlayStation 1 because we were a very small company at that time. We had a small group of people trying to do almost everything. Because we were new, we tried to speak to the people in the industry, our partners and developers, and we tried to learn a lot. So we kind of stopped with that approach as we became successful and larger and more confident. The pace of change was not that fast during PS2 and even PS3. The PS3 era for us was the beginning of the network platform being integrated at a system level... but back then people didn't really use smartphones and that all changed in three or four years and it was a huge change. That forced us back to basics almost, and it required us to really think through everything that we do from the hardware specifications to services to the overall business plans. We had to think about the use of new devices and what that means for us. When people use mobile devices, is that competition? Or are [mobile devices] tools for us? We had to redefine our platform almost, and we have come to conclude that this is the beginning of a new era of PlayStation, shifting more from a hardware focus to a service focus.
"We have come to conclude that this is the beginning of a new era of PlayStation, shifting more from a hardware focus to a service focus"
The PS4 generation is going to be the transitional generation. In a sense, it's the completion of the evolution of the strong 3D capable consoles, but at the same time it's at the maturing phase of our network platform and the beginning of our new service phase, like our cloud gaming that we are preparing to launch next year. And the use of mobile devices is part of our ecosystem. So all that considered, and the difficulty we had at the launch of the PS3, and very strong competition especially in North America, that made us really revisit everything we've been doing and redefine the company, almost like we're re-entering this industry. Even across our teams, I think you now get more consistent messages [about PlayStation] compared to past generations, because we talk a lot more and get a lot of input [from all the teams] on different decisions.
In the past, it was very much [driven by] Tokyo. And now [Group CEO] Andrew House is playing a major role in getting the US and European groups integrated. And I've been playing a major role myself on the development side for the last five years... So, Andy and I can quickly decide for certain projects, “let's get this person from the US team or this person from the European team” and put someone in charge of a global project. So it's a much more integrated international team that we have now and we are always communicating. There's been a great maturing of our organization compared to past generations.
Q: During Sony's last earnings call, CFO Masaru Kato said that PS4 actually will contribute to the division's profitability much earlier on than past consoles. How important is this to the continued sustainability of PlayStation as a business, and does this mean we should expect Sony to cut prices on PS4 to make it more affordable sooner?
Shuhei Yoshida: Yeah, I read an article where an executive of a major publisher said something about [prices coming down sooner]... Because Masaru Kato used to be CFO of Sony Computer Entertainment and he was the key guy on the business side when we launched the PS3 - he was the right-hand man for Ken Kutaragi - he had to go through that really tough time. During the PS2 era, we were very proud that we were generating like half the profit of Sony Group or something like that, but with the launch of PS3, we lost billions of dollars and we became a burden for Sony. So Masaru's comments, comparing to PS3, it's too easy a benchmark. In a sense, we're doing great because we're not losing billions with the launch of PS4 - in fact, we're pretty much breakeven in this launch year of PS4 - but looking forward, it's fair that as CFO of Sony, and with his experience with previous PlayStation generations, that he would expect a better financial performance... And of course, he's in a position to really whip all of the business groups at Sony to get the best performance possible.
On the question of whether costs come down quicker, I think there are a couple ways to answer that question. One is that our hardware teams have chosen more standardized components to create PlayStation 4 and that's contributing to our launch price of $399 versus $599 for the PS3. When we need to source components to get more supply to the retailers, that approach definitely helps compared to some cutting edge component that only one manufacturer can produce, like Blu-ray or the Cell processor. Those were big bottlenecks. It's much better this time, and that's all great, but it might mean that because we're already using more standardized components, the room for costs to come down might actually be slower than when we were starting with cutting edge stuff.
Q: The PS4 software reviews so far have been average or in some cases, worse than average. As the head of Worldwide Studios, what's your reaction to this? Are you worried about the impact on PS4? The PS3 suffered from a lack of great software but the system did well in the end, so how important is it to have that "system seller" at launch?
Shuhei Yoshida: Yeah, it's disappointing to see some of the low scores. I haven't spent enough time reading reviews, but I would characterize them as mixed. And with this launch there are lots of games coming out, so the media must be very busy going through the games quickly, and especially since the online functionality wasn't ready until in the last couple days. So we have to look at how much time they spend on what aspect of the games and how that may be contributing to some of the lower scores. It's disappointing but I don't think it's worrisome for the launch of the system. I've played through all of our games, Killzone, Knack and Resogun, and I totally enjoyed playing through these games. I'm now on my second run of Knack and Resogun at a higher difficulty - these games really grow on you when you play more. I'm very confident that once you purchase these games and play, you'll be happy that you've done so.
Q: You mentioned Knack, and unfortunately that game got even lower scores than the others, and I'm wondering if that's more frustrating since it came from Mark Cerny. Was Mark not able to devote his complete attention to Knack because of his responsibilities as PS4 system architect? Was he spread a bit too thin?
"[Knack is] not the type of game reviewers would score high for the launch of a next-gen system. The game was targeted as what we call a second purchase"
Shuhei Yoshida: No, I don't think that's right. He spent maybe a quarter of his time during the development of Knack and in his position of giving creative direction and overseeing development, it was appropriate... He was in Japan every month for a week, working with the team, so the communication was very good.
The game wasn't designed [to meet specific] review scores - I was hoping Knack could score in the mid 70s and last I checked it's around 59-60, so I'm hoping it goes up. The game uses only three buttons to play, so it's not the type of game reviewers would score high for the launch of a next-gen system. The game was targeted as what we call a second purchase; you know, people may purchase PS4 for Call of Duty or Assassin's Creed or Killzone, but if they also buy Knack, this is a game that you can play with your family or your significant other. It's a message that as a platform we are not just trying to cater only to the hardcore, shooter audience - we are looking at all kinds of gamers - but Knack is a great game for core gamers as well because when you up the difficulty level it becomes a really tight, tense action brawler.
But the goal was to design it to be played by anyone, even someone who's never played before. So it wasn't aimed at high review scores, even though higher would be appreciated! Killzone is different - it's definitely targeted to the core gaming audience and we're still waiting on more reviews because some sites are saying they played single player but not enough multiplayer. So I'll wait with my personal judgment until I read more reviews.
Q: Regarding the Drive Club delay, considering that the PS4 has been in development for 6 years, it's odd that an internal studio like Evolution that knew the launch, the specs and everything else well in advance of even the closest third-party partner should miss the launch. Was there some miscommunication or what happened to cause the delay?
Shuhei Yoshida: It's almost an amazing achievement for any studio to set a release date and achieve it, especially for the launch of a new system because the hardware and software tools are always getting updated. So you always have to work with the moving target, so to speak. That said, PS4 has been praised for the ease of development and the stability of the dev kit by everyone - not just our teams but other developers and publishers. And it's true that Evolution was also heavily in discussions about PS4 hardware features and network service features. Where the team missed the date and miscalculated the tasks was when they tried to do something they have not done before.
A launch title is especially tricky if you aim too high. When you try new things, you definitely have to prepare for multiple iterations... In order for a title to come out at launch, the ambition level has to kind of be kept in check; the team has to rely on tried and true mechanisms. That I think is the main reason for missing the launch date. Drive Club is exciting because it really goes aggressive into the integration of social features and the second-screen experience, and that's a new addition for Evolution. The team has been making racing games for a long time, so they're veterans when it comes to core racing...
Q: So it was the addition of social integration features that set them back?
Shuhei Yoshida: They always planned the game to have these social features but because these features are new, they found some technical matters or flaws in play testing, and that's the reason we waited until the very end to announce the delay. They might have been able to hit the date, but in terms of both getting technical matters down and getting the game polished enough... we decided we wanted the team to go back to some of the features and spend some more time to get it done.
Q: This is a multi-part question. First, there's been a lot of noise in the media lately about how Xbox One runs Call of Duty: Ghosts at 720p, not the full 1080p resolution that it plays on PS4. How important is this? Do you think the average consumer would really appreciate the difference? Second, how much will the average consumer notice a difference between last-gen PS3 and Xbox 360 games and what PS4 now offers? PS3 games look very good, so do graphics matter in next-gen? Why should consumers spend $400 on PS4?
Shuhei Yoshida: I can confidently say that graphics matter, because I played through Killzone: Shadow Fall. What I mean is, most people probably can't tell looking at 720p or 1080p unless you're in the industry or you're a hardware nerd, but when you compare a game like Killzone: Shadow Fall to Killzone 3 on PS3, for example, the fact that the game is rendered and displayed at 1080p native means that every pixel is rendered, and in combination with the new Dual Shock 4 analog sticks and triggers, it's great when you're playing a shooter and you can see the enemy far away from you and you can move the crosshair to aim with pixel perfect precision.
When you talk to game designers at Guerilla, they would tell you it's kind of traditional for shooters on consoles to include some aim assist [function] because of the lack of accuracy of the control and the lack of clarity in the graphics, but with 1080p and the power of PS4 you don't need that. So you actually have more control and the satisfaction level is higher. So when you're shooting enemies, it's all you. You don't need to be able to spot the difference in resolution but it just feels great. That's the difference; graphics isn't just about making things look pretty, but it can make the gameplay better. Another example is in racing games, like Gran Turismo, when you see a long road ahead and it curves to the left or right, you can tell what's coming thanks to the resolution and power of graphics. The improved draw distance gives you anticipation for what's to come. So the power of hardware and graphics in some areas is actually very related to great gameplay experiences.
"There are a lot of hidden powers in our system... in two to three years the graphics will be really amazing"
Since the beginning of this year when we saw leaks [about the specs] of next-gen platforms, we immediately knew since the tech specs on PS4 were accurate that the Xbox specifications were likely accurate as well. So we knew at that point that we had much more raw power... So I was hoping from earlier this year that when games come out from third-parties - because that's the best example, to look at the same game on different platforms - if there's any slight performance difference on the two systems I'll be very happy. I wasn't expecting something like [what happened with] Call of Duty, 720p versus 1080p - that's a significant difference. Or Battlefield 4, which is 900 versus 720 - 900 requires 50 percent more pixels to be rendered. I learned all this from the Digital Foundry site.
There are a lot of hidden powers in our system. You may be familiar with GPGPU and PS4 has a lot more GPGPU processing in it, which is difficult to learn and master, similar to a Cell processor. So every year the games on PS4 will perform better because most of the launch teams probably didn't use GPGPU - they probably just used core graphics. So when the developers [use more of these] in two to three years the graphics will be really amazing. Resogun, by the way, is already using GPGPU... and that game is getting very good reviews!
Q: That may be the PS4 system seller you were looking for!
Shuhei Yoshida: At least we have one game that's getting great reviews.
Q: It's great for Sony to say that PS4 is more powerful than Xbox One, it's a great marketing point but...
Shuhei Yoshida: Well, I always say "I believe" or "We believe." I'm not saying that it is.
Q: Ok, but from an industry standpoint, in a way isn't it good that both consoles are so similar, so that developers can easily create games for both and target a larger combined installed base? I'm wondering - and this may sound like an odd question - does Sony ever communicate with Microsoft to get a sense of where an industry “standard” for consoles might end up for another generation?
Shuhei Yoshida: No, no. We didn't conspire [laughs]. But it's very interesting how we came to the same selection of CPU and GPU vendors. It's not exactly the same as each company customized the processing choices and so we ended up with more processing power but the architecture basically is quite similar. If you talk to any third-party developer, they say it's a wonderful thing because they really want to make the development process very efficient. So I think it's great, because learning the Cell processor was very difficult and now with PS4 everything's much easier - and at the same time, if you're a multiplatform developer it's going to be very easy to create PC, PS4 and Xbox One versions of a game because all three share the same kind of roots.
That said, each company, including Nintendo, has some unique additions to the core... So the multiplatform developers do have some decisions about how much customization and additional work they want to do to take advantage of the different unique aspects of the platforms. And by the way, I don't think developers have to do much more to take advantage of the raw power of PS4, to get games to render at the highest resolution.
Q: Microsoft has talked a lot about their cloud computing and the extra power that gives the Xbox One to offload some of that processing to a server in games like Forza or Titanfall. Is this something Sony can compete with? Can Gaikai be used in a similar way? Is that realistic, or perhaps Sony and Microsoft view the cloud differently?
Shuhei Yoshida: We've been clear on what cloud gaming means, and that's getting games to run on the server and sending that video signal to a distant device. The way they are using cloud computing seems very different and I totally don't understand what they mean by that. So we can't react to what they are saying because we don't understand. The explanation I found personally was, again, an article on Digital Foundry. They went through all the computing tasks a game goes through and for each one they checked off if it can actually be done on the server versus the client, and most of the tasks a game has to perform, they said, cannot be done on the server because of the huge latency and the bandwidth. There's so much data going back and forth between the CPU and memory and GPU inside the console compared to going through the internet... There were maybe four or five tasks that actually could be done on the server. So that was very educational to me. After reading the article, the Microsoft message was even more confusing to me.
Q: With PS4 launching, we haven't touched on Vita at all, but I did want to ask if you think those two systems will feed off each other? The Vita business has been slower than Sony would like but do you think the interest in PS4 and features like Remote Play could help boost the Vita sales over the long-term?
Shuhei Yoshida: Yeah, I hope so. It's been exciting these past couple days when we saw the media experimenting with Remote Play. It's very impressive. And the use case is if the main TV is occupied, then you can continue the game on Vita. If you live alone, maybe the use case is less, but even if you live alone there's some value in it. For example, I like to play games before I sleep, so I use Vita in the bed before I sleep and so whether or not the TV is occupied it's just very convenient for me to be able to continue to play, unless I really need that accuracy with shooting like I talked about earlier, so maybe I wouldn't play Killzone with Remote Play but I totally enjoy playing Knack on Vita.
So that definitely makes your Vita much more valuable if you already own one, and if you don't, once you get PS4 the potential value of Vita is much higher. We definitely hope people see that value and have a chance to see PS4 games running on Vita in person, because the combination of PS4's power and the great display of PS Vita is awesome. It's like mini cloud gaming, and actually Gaikai has worked on Remote Play. I'm very happy with the implementation - it's a seamless experience.