Backlash fears halt global Dead Or Alive Xtreme 3 launch
Team Ninja has no EU and US launch plans due to concern over series' depictions of women
Dead Or Alive Xtreme 3 will not be published in Europe or North America, the first time Team Ninja's beach volleyball series has failed to reach those markets
Responding to a fan enquiry on Facebook, an official representative of the game said, "We do not bring DOAX3 to the west and won't have any plan change in the future. Thank you for asking."
As more responses rolled in, the representative clarified the studio's position. "Do you know many issues happening in video game industry with regard to how to treat female in video game industry? We do not want to talk those things here. But certainly we have gone through in last year or two to come to our decision. Thank you."
For those not familiar with the series - which started with Dead Or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball in 2003 - the appeal is as much down to its scantily clad, generously proportioned and perpetually giggling female character models as it is engaging with the various mini-games that comprise its gameplay.
With that in mind, it's understandable that Team Ninja and publisher Koei Tecmo might have anticipated a backlash, and weighed that negative publicity against the costs of marketing and any potential sales.
Dead Or Alive Xtreme 3 will launch in Japan in February 2016. We have contacted Koei Tecmo for further comment on its plans for a worldwide release.
They're most likely not releasing the game in the West because they don't think it'll sell enough to warrant the cost of localising and publishing it, which they would be shouldering themselves as Microsoft Game Studios are no longer involved.
(I assume from the replies below that I can see that the usual aggrieved conspiracy theorists have come out of the woodwork. It would be great if gamesindustry.biz would actually bother with comment moderation as a matter of course instead of only taking it seriously when the toxicity threatens to become a PR issue. YouTube conspiracy videos and muckraking tabloids are not legitimate news sources. Spreading defamatory rumours about visible women in the industry is unacceptable, and certainly not something anyone wants to see on what is supposed to be an industry resource.)
Edited 1 times. Last edit by Robin Clarke on 27th November 2015 12:36pm
Hasn't a handful of similar events happened recently, with Japanese games being more censored in the west in the form of removed or changed female outfits?
AAA Developers, so far us indies have spoken about the things you couldn't say for fear of backlash or losing your job, since we can. But it's time you broke your silence if you want to revert the direction in which AAA is going. We don't have the power to do it for you.
That's not censorship. That's a business decision.
Ultimately this decision doesn't change anything. People who wanted the game can still import it, and everyone else can have fun screaming at each other on twitter over it.
Most of the sales were in Japan.
Or, to put it another way... Which plays better to the "perceived target demographic" - saying it's not financially worthwhile to release a game in the West, or implying they'd love to release it, but those damn feminists/SJWs/moral-do-gooders would cause trouble if they did?
Edited 4 times. Last edit by Morville O'Driscoll on 25th November 2015 5:43pm
I have conversations with friends that I wouldn't have with my parents - I don't call that self-censorship: I call that tact.
No-one is telling them they can't do something.
Yesterday we were talking about this, and personally I don't believe that's the reason. Sure some people could get mad, but it's not like the game is going to be banned or ruin your reputation as a company. Just look at Marvelous AQL and their "Senran Kagura" or Tamsoft and their "Onechanbara"... or all those fanservice Vita games.
My theory and what I personally believe that happens here: They just can't go and say "Hey dear fans, you are too few, it's not worthy for us to localize a game that only a small number of you will actually buy" because that would cause the actual backslash. It's easier to say that and let the fans blame some "SJW-Sarkeesian conspiracy if shadow" (like they are already doing)
Yet Alfonso, Anita's message has been precisely that developers should not make games like Dead or Alive.
She was praised by the media everywhere, including non gaming media. She made a lot of money. Received a lot of support. Anyone who spoke against that message, was branded misogynistic, or a straight white male basement #gamergate dweller, including by gamesindustry.biz, with a very one sided, frankly ridiculous and shallow narrative.
And now that we are seeing developers say they see the west as a place that hates boobies and sexy women in video games, a game with boobs and sexy women is not finding itself coming here. Are the developers lying about the motive? Let's say they are, does that change the fact that we have been promoting that kind of message for the past 2 years? Will we continue to send this silly message that objectifying women in video games is bad?
Now that you are seeing the possible outcome of that, maybe you'll rethink your attitude.
But like I said, it's not like indie development will be affected by that. This is a conflict for the AAA industry, and also related with the notion that video games are for children.
And next year, with Virtual Reality devices being released, we'll probably be looking at a huge influx of actual pornographic, priced tagged, realistic 3D games on the market. I wonder how the industry will react to that, when women in bikinis are controversial right now.
I think the PR from that alone isn't worth the hassle.
The mainline Dead or Alive series isn't facing this "issue". I would be tempted to say this is something faced more by hentai VN companies, than anybody else. Interestingly, though, there's been quite a few "sexy" Japanese VNs released on Steam in the past year (including at least one dealing with lesbian themes, and one with nudity), and there's not been one-word said against them. So perhaps it's just the juvenile wanky jiggle-athon that's an issue?
Side-point that is a major digression: Writing that last sentence, I was reminded of how Carry-On films used to be one of the British Film Industry's exports. Yet you look at them now, and they stand as a testament to how nudge-nudge-wink-wink the British were about sex. Could it be argued that DoA Beach Tittyfest is the game industry's Carry On franchise?
Edited 6 times. Last edit by Morville O'Driscoll on 26th November 2015 10:26am
And I think you should note that I haven't said people can't/shouldn't import them. So give it a rest, yeah?
Edited 1 times. Last edit by Morville O'Driscoll on 26th November 2015 10:54am
Edited 1 times. Last edit by Morville O'Driscoll on 26th November 2015 11:21am
Anita talks, manages people to listen to her. And you can't do that without rising a valid point. You can disagree or not, but those are facts; a part of the industry is by her side, other part is not. The first change their games, the second don't. See? no conspiracy here; just logic talk.
I disagree with Anita in more than one point, never got attacked for that. So maybe it's not what you say but HOW you say. For example: Don't tell people "maybe you should rethink xxx", I don't have to rethink anything; you can try and convince me, or not, but in the end nobody has the right to tell another person that he need to rethink his ideas since "he is wrong"
And that's it. You have a good day now.
John Owens says, "You don't like these games and don't think anyone else should and therefore you agree with the people doing all within their power both through argument and intimidation to stop others from playing them."
Both statements are demonstrably wrong, though John's in a more subtle way. While you can probably find some particular phrases in Sarkeesian's work and pull them out of context to try to demonstrate otherwise, any fair assessment of the full body of her work will make it obvious that she's merely expressing criticism, not arguing that such games should not be made or that people shouldn't be allowed to play them. And I have never, ever seen a single posted comment here on gi.biz claiming that nobody should be allowed to like and/or play sexist games.
Not that there's any arguing with these GamerGate-like folks. They're convinced that they're being oppressed in some way, and facts won't ever change their minds. Their identity seems somehow tightly bound up in making sure we never mention that a game where a primary focus is women's breasts bouncing up and down is not only sexist but, frankly, juvenile.
My point is clear: developers, there is nothing bad with sexualizing women in video games. If anyone has an compelling that sexualizing women in video games is harmful, I'm yet to hear it. Nobody is harmed from that. So don't do it for a moral reason. Do it for an economic reason if it makes sense, but not for moral ones and not because you feel pressured into it due to bad PR, because there are many of us that will support you. Do what you want, games are an artistic medium. You are supposed to express yourself how you want, even if in a juvenile way. Those that disagree, can try to show me the other way.
Curt, I would love to see Anita saying it's ok for developers to make the DOA series, and ok for people to play it and buy it, and enjoy it.
If you have any video evidence of her ever saying something like this regarding a similar game, then please link. I would also like to point out that Anita is another derail of this comment section, the only reason we started talking about that was a tangent point when someone said:
?
From the link I posted in my first comment. That's dated August.
But, no, clearly "intimidation" is the reason why this game is not getting a release in the West.
Edit to add: Interesting somewhat-in-depth article about all this: http://www.usgamer.net/articles/doax3-still-not-releasing-in-us-koei-tecmo-makes-excuses
He dismisses the Gothic Loli as a possibility, but perhaps Xenoblade Chronicle X's costume-change has made KT wary of such situations?
Edited 2 times. Last edit by Morville O'Driscoll on 26th November 2015 8:07pm
If you want to get back to facts, rather than you twisting things around, I am stepping right out and saying the claims you guys made that I quoted above are factually incorrect. I see you've moved on to other statements of "fact" that you can't support (see the second paragraph of the post above), and assume that in response to this you're just going to make up more stuff that "supports" your argument that the white European male is one of the most oppressed groups in the world.
I've seen overly politically-correct people fall in to their little la-la lands and I've gotten annoyed by that, but you "GamerGate" types (or pick whatever other label for your poor oppressed selves you like; I don't care) really take the cake. You appear to have no capability whatsoever to interpret any sort of differing views as anything but a direct attack that's trying to destroy your way of life.
https://youtu.be/9L_Wmeg7OTU
Watch the first minute of that interview. Anita says:
Later on:
So, yes. If Anita and people that share her views are saying that such things are bad, logically that implies they think such things should not be created. Or are you telling me their message is that "sexism in video games is bad, but don't worry about it, keep making sexist games"? If anything, their message is not clear then, and they have to make it clear.
That's why I ask to see one instance of Anita, or people who support her views, actually come out and say something like "we should have games that are not sexualized as well, but it's ok to have sexualized games for boys". They have not said that. The message that people seem to be picking up upon, including the Japanese devs, is that all sexualized women is bad and you should not make a game that has sexualized women, is it not?
You keep talking a lot and a lot Curt, but you are yet to show any evidence. All you have to offer us here is your interpretation without even linking to something she has said to back up your interpretations. And please stop with the personal insults like "you gamergaters", adds nothing to a discussion, it isn't an actual argument and makes you look unprofessional.
And you can't ragingly disagree with her position then none the less demand that she supports yours. This seems silly. I'd find it annoying if in the middle of a debate, my opposite started patting my hand and nodding, telling me my position is perfectly valid too. It would be ingratiating and mealy-mouthed, dishonest. This is arguing for politicians and children.
As far as sexuality vs sexism goes, it's those of you who are black and white on the issue and can take a side who are most out of whack with the rest of us. Nobody delights in sexism but most any developer, if you push them, supports the right of games to be sexual and is against censorship broadly if not fanatically. So for most of us GG is not a forum to discuss these issues sensibly, even if the hardcore minority continues on their great quest to tilt at windmills.
At this stage an awful lot of Gamergate, on both sides, is a made up fight about nothing, waged by people who fantasise they are battling for all of us but really are after personal vindication. Somehow, they have tangled up this somewhat minor and overly-intellectual online argument with their personal identity. So people go from calm to volcanic at the drop of a verb. If a great debate amounts to a bunch of really angry people making up new words to call each other on a forum, anybody with a life switches off. That's why everybody in the industry leapt on the proGGers when the threats started. It wasn't because everybody was suddenly a politically correct sheep, like the ever-suffering proGGers wanted to believe. It was because violent threats and the shutting down of conferences was actually a real, live issue that was happening, as opposed to the bullshit rah-rah-rah that the GG crowd carry on with every day. Oh, your fantasy battle is so real to you, you think it's worth threatening peoples lives now? Then Je Suis fucking Sarkeesian, asshole.
Edited 1 times. Last edit by Barry Meade on 27th November 2015 3:21pm
If someone asks me, "is it ok to make such movies or games?", I'd answer "yes. Threre is nothing wrong in making games or movies that are about violence, or even promoting it". What would be wrong, is that if those were all the values we had in society. Psychological studies suggest that what we say, is not as important as what we imitate from other people's behavior. We all grew up with violent video games, but we are not violent because our parents are not violent, our friends were not violent. Our values were stronger than violence. So, while I can denounce the values of a violent video games (violence is bad), I can say it's completely ok to make a violent video game at the same time.
Now, is it ok to have a sexualized game? By the same logic, yes. I don't want to date a girl that is dumb and all looks. I want a girl that is smart. The fact games exist that show girls that are purely eye candy, like games that are about violent characters, should not be the reason why girls become purely eye candy or why men become sexist, correct? We need other values. So, we can denounce the values of a sexist game (being a shallow girl that is all nails and hair is bad), but say at the same time that it's ok to make such games, for the enjoyment of people.
We have fought the notion that violent games caused violence in the past, so why should we say now that sexy video games make people sexist?
And here is where I don't agree with your salt analogy. First, you are saying that salt is bad for your health, but good for your tastes. Is Anita saying what I just said, and what you just said, that sexist values are bad as values, but they can be good and positive thing for people as a medium to enjoy? As in, recognizing that salt is bad for the health but good for the soul?
What is unclear about Anita's message is, that while we all know she is saying sexism is bad as a value, is she saying or not that sexually appealing video games are bad as well for the consumers or not?. As in "there is something wrong with you if you enjoy salt. That's the damage the patriarchy has done to you". So, what is her message exactly?
And, again, it seems that japanese devs and lots of people are understanding that the message is that we shouldn't enjoy girls portrayed in a sexualized way, ever. That is what the statement from the Japanese devs on why the are not releasing a game seems to be coming from. If we do not agree with that statement, maybe we need to do a better job at exposing what we actually believe in. Asking Anita whether she is ok with DOA being released and people enjoying it or not would be a great start.
It's not at all clear from the evidence that DOA is a victim of self censorship. They have publicly floated more than one reason and I find each of them compelling, I'm sure it *was* a multitude of reasons combined that caused them to take that decision but I'd say the primary one is they know it's c-list game and nobody is really interested in it. If they could make big bank with it I doubt an army of detractors could stop them publishing.
Robert's staying well off the rails with things like, No, of course not. Sarkeesian's message, as far as I have seen, is "1. There's clear, incontrovertable evidence, which I have presented, of sexism in games. 2. This is probably bad, in certain ways, for society." I haven't seen her enter the debate on exactly what sort of further limits, if any, should be placed on freedom of speech in light of this.
But I think this really gets to the core of things:
A point I've been trying to make is that the GamerGate reaction is intimately bound up with this "self-censorship" issue because the two things are just different sides of the same coin.
First, let's make it clear: "self-censorship" is often a very good thing. The "self-censorship" that keeps people from making and distributing games simulating snuff porn, physical abuse of women, or lynching of homosexuals and black people, to give just a small handful of examples, is completely desirable for society, and we'd like to continue to maintain an environment "toxic" to such things. I'm just going to assume that everybody here agrees with this position; feel free to let us know if you don't.
Given that some self-censorship and an environment toxic to certain views is a good thing, the question is merely, "what, as a society should we be strongly discouraging?" I don't think that there's a clear line that can be drawn here, and we need to look at a lot of examples and discuss them, which is precisely where people like Sarkeesian are doing us a great service, by collecting evidence and providing a starting point for discussion.
A number of people out there, particularly from what one might call "traditional minorities" and the feminist camp and the like, maintain that they feel that the current gaming environment has elements that they find discourage them from speaking up, and that is clearly the case, given the death threats, doxxing, and other malicious activities we've seen in reaction to the pointing out of anti-feminist tropes in gaming. Those reacting against this are free to argue about this, but their complaints that they feel that they're now in a hostile and unwelcoming environment get no sympathy from me: all I have to say is "welcome to where some other people have been all this time." What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and if you feel that making others with different viewpoints uncomfortable is a good thing, you should admit that you're doing it yourselves and put a stop to it before complaining about others.
Is it bad that a company decided not to release to certain markets a masturbatory fantasy of girls as sex objects rather than people? I don't know for sure either way, but I certainly think it's a reasonable topic for discussion, rather than something that should be condemned immediately as "someone's trying to kill free speech."
And how is it a bad thing that those "former game journalists" are exercising their right to free speech and to make decisions about their own behaviour?
Edited 1 times. Last edit by Curt Sampson on 28th November 2015 12:34am
I'm the one staying on topic here. A company said they don't want to release their game in the west because they feel the west will react badly to it. The issue here has to do with the message western developers, gamers and the media are sending to people out there.
And the most direct question to be answered is: do we agree with that, that games with female sexual appeal should not be released to the western audience, or do we not agree and need to work on our image so our message is clear?
Harassment, gamergate, whatever, is what is off the rails here.
No-one is saying that games with female sexual appeal should not be released to the Western audience, and, as I have already stated above, there's plenty of instances of sexy games. Here, I'll make it even easier for you: http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_7_7_151_12&term=nudity and https://www.mangagamer.com/ (both links NSFW to a greater or lesser extent).
No. Regular censorship ensures that such things aren't sold/distributed without legal repercussions. Self-censorship ensures that these things aren't produced in the first-place.
Edited 4 times. Last edit by Morville O'Driscoll on 28th November 2015 12:05pm
There has been a lot of internet articles, personal tweets and blogs expressing that opinion. If you haven't seen any, you haven't been browsing places that talk about that sort of content.
And the people, like Anita, who have not yet plant their feet and said whether they think such games should be developed at all or not, are "criticizing them", like it happened with that Kotaku article on the Dragon's Crow sorcerer: "Game Developers Really Need To Stop Letting Teenage Boys Design Their Characters"
Do they really need to stop? What is wrong with making them?
Then, you have the most upvoted comment there:
The opinion? That the game is demeaning [to women], and that even though you like the genre, you shouldn't buy the game purely because of immaturity and not being ok with marginalizing women. Had he stopped at immaturity, it would be ok, but when you add "demeaning" and "not ok to marginalize" women, what these people are actually expressing is a sentiment that such games should not be released, and this is not ok to enjoy them, otherwise, you are sexist. This is just one example (I didn't even follow the dragon's crown controversy, nor played the game, I just remembered this as an example and went after it). There are thousands more.
Again: there is in fact an apparently large group of people saying rock and roll is corrupting the youth and should be banned, but with sexy characters instead. A group that may even be larger than the people that were concerned with violent video games in the past. This is worthy of being addressed by us. It will help if people and the media stop calling anyone who doesn't think sexualizing females is bad a "gamergater", and address the situation properly. Where did the adults in the games industry go?
I also recall them (or at least some of their members) having panels about being more inclusive to women in the video games industry, and other women related issues.
I have not seen anything yet from them when it comes to this whole debate on what people are calling sexism in video games. From what I can gather, they are completely silent on it. Why?
They even have an Advocacy: Anti-Censorship & social issues subsection on their site, with articles from violence in video games up to 2013. But as far as I know, they have been completely silent in this whole Anita/Gamergate/SJW/Sexism in videogames debate.
Their mission: Perhaps this is not considered an issue yet, because there are no danger of actual laws to regulate video games differently at this point?
Anyway, just wanted to point them out in their silence.
Don't act surprised when some region free game from Japan mysteriously has full English menus and subtitles. Because for the low sales the predecessors had in the West, this one message is probably all the PR they need, the rest can be done by grey importers.
I always think Jerry Holkins writes brilliantly on issues of the games press and its decaying relationship both to the industry proper, and its audience. His recent post in Penny Arcade from a couple of weeks back had this quote:
Edited 1 times. Last edit by Nick McCrea on 28th November 2015 4:22pm
If it's along the lines of, "I feel intimidated because I was told someone will come and do physical harm to me if I continue to say such things," then, no, I don't think that should fall under freedom of speech.
If it's along the lines of, "I feel oppressed and intimidated by articles and blog posts from feminists that are putting forward views I don't agree with," well, that's your problem.
Let me make this clear again: I believe very, very strongly that, at this point, anybody who wants to release a game like DOA Xtreme 3 to a western audience should be free to do so. (I really thought you were on my side on this.) And as far as I can tell, they are.
I'm trying to figure out what you want here. You're clearly upset by people exercising their free speech to say they don't like certain things. You seem to be saying that there's some sort of systematic societal bias occurring here that's making you feel bad. But now you're just reiterating the arguments of feminists and similar groups, but fifty years behind them. So why is it that it's bad now when it wasn't bad then? Just because it's now you feeling oppressed rather than women or non-white people or whatever?
Your ability to not address my actual arguments and go with your emotions is uncanny.
CTRL+F "rock", find my post where I mentioned rock and roll. My point is pretty clear in that post, with lots of analogies. Feel free to address any of my arguments instead of posting how you feel about my feelings.
What, precisely, do you want Sarkeesian to stop saying, and why? Please point out the actual speech you think she's doing harm with, rather than making up things. Or let's start with our agreement that what Sarkeesian is saying is fine, and work from there. Your choice.
This whole discussion has been crippled by people one one side, excuse my French, "making s--t up." They claim, for example, that DoA wasn't released due to oppression by the matriarchy or whatever, not just in the face of no solid evidence, but even evidence to the contrary. (One excellent way to keep the game out of the spotlight in the West would be not to create an English version. Yet they spent extra money to do so, and continue to distribute a version that works in English even though their ostensible markets are arguably the least English-speaking nations in the world.)
I'm not saying intimidation doesn't go on via speech on the Internet, but I think that clear death threats and the like are the place we want to start railing against it, not situations like this that a) could just as well be a marketing stunt as any actual intimidation, and b) where the value of the game is actually a reasonable point for discussion. (Though I'm sure certainly people here will take that second part as me saying, "ban it now!")
Edited 2 times. Last edit by Curt Sampson on 30th November 2015 11:40pm
I've addressed that in more than 1 post
And everything else you have asked me is addressed on the post I mentioned rock music, that I asked you to read on my last reply.
Essentially, the community rep's views don't represent KT.
Soooooo...
"intimidation" and "censorship", right?
To be fair, I don't think GI did a lot to help this by posting the barest minimum of "facts" regarding the story. But *shrugs* guess you got to go elsewhere for in-depth news stories about gaming.