Uncredited L.A. Noire staff reveal frustration at working conditions
Team Bondi was "inflexible and virtually praise-free environment" says ex-staff
Team Bondi developers who claim they were purposefully not credited for Rockstar Games' L.A. Noire have complained of 12 hour long days and a crunch period that lasted over a year - according to new newspaper reports.
Previously over 100 separate staff members have complained of being left out of the credits for the game, which has lead to the creation of the website L.A. Noire Credits.
Speaking to The Sydney Morning Herald, most of the developers involved did not wish to be named, but the estimate of those left out of the credits has risen to 130.
One unnamed developer alleges that some staff were specifically told they would not be credited unless they remained with the company until after the game shipped. This is contrary to guidelines laid out by industry bodies such as the IGDA.
The list of omitted staff apparently includes one lead engine developer who worked on the game for four years. Another developer who spoke to the newspaper claimed to work on the game for over three years but left because, "I felt as though my sanity depended on it".
Although also unnamed, for fear of the adverse affect it could have on his career, the developer claims he was asked to work 10 to 12 hours almost every day and on weekends, describing Team Bondi as an "inflexible and virtually praise-free environment".
"So, after my wife had been pushing me to quit for more than a year, I did," he said. Although long hours are not unusual in the final weeks or months before a game's completion, the suggestion that a crunch period could last for over a year is unusual.
One source speaking to the newspaper suggested that the omissions occurred because of the many changes made to the game over the course of its development, but the co-creator of the L.A. Noire Credits site insists that many developers are adamant that their work was still included in the final game.
If someone came to me on the wages I'm on now and told me to work 12 hours a day, seven days a week I'd tell them to shove it, and before people say "it's not that simple" yes it is.
As long as employees allow employers to exploit them, they will continue to be exploited. I can say with a degree of certainty that if these 130 or however many folks it was had all decided to work to rule then their circumstances would have changed for the better very quickly - even if they had been fired they would have a strong case for unfair dismissal and additionally they would be better off out of that environment, and the negative PR would almost certainly force the studio to change - look at the EA Spouse thing from a few years ago; I can tell you now that EA is a nice place to work these days, or it certainly is from my point of view.
The real problem here is that there are still many many folks in this industry who are so desperate to work in this business they will put up with any amount of crap, especially when told "it's always been like this". The reason it's always been like this is because people continue to make the mistakes of their predecessors because very few have any frame of reference outside of the industry, and even the majority of managers seem to have been promoted from within with no proper management training. Poor scheduling is the key culprit; it seems a lot of so-called project managers couldn't manage a project if it jumped up and bit them on the bum.
It's very simple - you work to live, not live to work. If you're unhappy with your current situation, if you get treated like crap (and I mean really treated like crap, not the myriad of minor whinges we all have) then do something about it. Find out if your colleagues have the same view and if so, document them and take them to your manager. If you get no joy with that then inform them you are requesting a meeting with HR and the GM of the studio to get your concerns addressed.
Importantly though, document everything, save all emails etc, even take photos of any posters or such on the walls if they advocate poor working practice. It's also a good idea to record meetings and so on, but be sure to be completely open and above board about it and make sure everyone present is aware of the recording and agrees to it. If someone doesn't want to be recorded, then end the meeting and again request an interview with HR and a senior manager.
Above all be polite and respectful at all times - do not get into slanging matches or arguments. Do not do anything that can be used to cast you as the bad guy, and never exaggerate - stick to the facts.
Lastly it helps if you can go in mob handed. One person alone will be facing a wall of management, but ten or twenty or a hundred people mean business. Don't forget there is strength in numbers.
Unfortunately I seem to get a lot of silly offers lately, like no or almost no holidays, compulsory and unpredictable crunch time, bad wheather, small city and very very limited freedom, for average salaries. So I can understand what keeps one from moving straight away from a given place - you don't want to move just to discover the new place is just as bad and you'll job hop again in six months time.
This is very useful news anyways, given that I would've liked to work at team bondi. The offers on their website seem very friendly indeed. I'll make sure I'm staying away from that!
As a recruiter Id like to point out another thing, I dont spend hours checking the credits to see if someone worked on a title. If you were at the studio did the work and can articulate that in an interview and convince our Engineers you have the skills then I wouldnt not hire someone based on some credits. Especially considering the poor quality of some indidivduals I have seen with an excellent list of credited titles.
My point is it shouldnt stop your Career although that doesnt mean you shouldnt get the credit you deserve.
Edited 1 times. Last edit by Jack Molloy on 21st June 2011 1:26pm
Crunch time is a part of the job, this is true. Anyone entering the industry thinking its an easy gig is mistaken, its hard work, but also rewarding too. So you are correct there.
However, *nobody* should be expected to work crunch time for a year, that is totally unacceptable. Most of the veterans on here will attest to that. The smallest thing that can be given to a games developer is a credit. We used to get our names in the printed games manuals, but we dont even get that anymore, just in-game credits.Its cheaper.
As a developer who has worked more than his fair share of crunch in the past, I hope that in your future career it never happens to you. You may show a little more understanding for those that have been through it, and nearly had their lives wrecked by it.
No one is a machine, even if it may appear to you that you should be, and having no weekends and never having time to spend with anybody that is not your co-worker has a very negative impact on your work. People that make you feel as a noob all the time just because they want to keep your wage low have a negative impact. Going back home with a stomachache has a bad impact, and being underpaid - guess it? - has a bad impact. Companies that strive for providing the best work conditions are not making too much of a gift, they do get something back. And after all, you want to get into the industry because you want to make games - how would you feel if once you get in, you meet people that make you wish you picked another job?
But in all honesty, what employer bothers to look up the credits in a particular game to see credentials for a potential employee. Isn't this why we have LinkedIn?
Edited 5 times. Last edit by Wolfgang Hamann on 21st June 2011 4:41pm
I quite like the philosophy of treating others as you would like to be treated. Thankfully in my last position when we had crunch everyone, including the producers and people who 'technically' weren't on crunch would crunch. But I hear that that is the exception rather than the rule, apparently - but a lot of companies could learn from them.
@Steven, I hear what you're saying about it being "that" easy, yet in many people's minds there are logical reasons not to take that approach. Lack of leadership and vision makes them blind to the possibility of successfully making the change, plus the confidence in the powers with the opposing views disparages any motivation of pursuing anything and results in further submission. Then consider the doubt employers have on being able to work without crunch and you can see why many will presume they have a losing argument.
Byron Atkinson-Jones wrote a great article over at Gama Sutra regarding scheduling (My Producer Hates Me).
@Steven (again), considering you were earning a 7 figure salary, could your role (and possibly the skills required to land that type of position) have given you a much different stance in these matters? I'm thinking of goals and vision, which many lack, resulting in mundane life choices and complacency in ones ambitions. Robert Kiyosaki breaks down the differences in various career-related mentalities very well.
But something needs to change; where there is not an abundance of jobs for people who want to break into the games industry it seems very unfair for desperate and ambitious employees to be exploited in this way. Investors need to take a different stance on the industry and also gain more understanding on how crunch negatively affects productivity and greatly affects health. There needs to be greater empathy in the industry.
Edited 1 times. Last edit by Keldon Alleyne on 21st June 2011 6:17pm
Considering the financial costs of including someone's name within the credits is 0.1p per SKU (a rough calculation) leaving names out of even a 'Special Thanks' section seems just selfish and vindictive, especially for those who worked for as much as four years on the project.
@Jamie, don't worry, it isn't all like that. Other industries have their tales of woe too, its but you frequent games industry websites so you hear about the games industries woes more than anyone else's :)
Don't paint it all balck already. Don't throw away your knowledge because of some "bad examples".
The posts above are very open and honest for people that are not in the industry. That's what I love about this page. I never had the chance to start at a game studio, so I started to combine my hobby with work from the other side up. I sell video games in a large retail company, manage the advertisments, getting in contact with game companys and blah blah ;)
And if it (hopefully) will change your thougts a bit, we have a crunch time aswell. Last time we opened a new store, we have been working 12-14 hours a day, 6 to 7 days a week for one month. It was "just" a month but it was the month before december wich was the next stressfull season.
To sum it up: Every employee has to go through rough times once in a while.. as long as it doesn't end like in the case above, just see through it. Cheers.
As a result, I like to think I have some idea of what I'm doing, and it is precisely that lack of experience that is really hurting our industry and leads to situations like the one in the article; poor management decisions lead to poor scheduling, which leads to overworked and under-appreciated staff and a "them and us" culture where insecure managers will see any perceived dissent as an attack on their credibility and staff see their bosses as uncaring slave drivers.
For example, what many people I know now call delegation, I call "getting my subordinates to do my work for me". Proper delegation is about empowering your staff, giving them enough responsibility to feel valued and important but not so much they get snowed under while you're sitting with your feet up on the desk.
Another one is the ubequitous "working from home" which seems to have become a euphemism for taking a day off. Perception is the key in business - it's not what you do, it's what you're seen to be doing that counts. You might work your socks off at home but your staff see you buggering off early and that breeds resentment.
Basically, happy staff are productive staff, and are far more likely to willingly go the extra mile for a manager they know has got their back. Anyone who knows me will tell you I'm the most caustic bugger you're ever likely to meet, but anyone who has worked for me will also tell you I will move Hell and high water to shield my staff from inteference from further up the chain and if you want my guys to work overtime at short notice you'd better have a bloody good reason :-)
I live in Chicago, and here in US most people dislike unions. They think that workers in unions are lazy and that unions are corrupt.
I think that situation would have to get much worse before people realize that they need to unionize.
I'm disappointed this happened in Australia. It may sound odd, but I had a small sense of pride that this game was made in my home country. Now it feels tainted. Still a fantastic game, and I reading this post I knew it wasn't the first or last time this would happen. But it's still sad.
Games need to be more regulated. Stuff like this is harder to get away with in the movie industry it seems. I'm not saying any industry is perfect, but look at developers like Tose who make entire games and NEVER get credited. I know that's their thing, but it's not right. It's almost plagiarism.
I'm just thankful I've never had to fight to get credited on any title I've contributed to.
Hopefully the Noire credits will get updated via a patch at some point.
Please don't take this comment as a defense of Team Bondi's behaviour, but the simple fact is that game companies are not required to give credit (unlike film and TV, where allocation of credit is very clearly defined).
One thing to consider in your next role would be to ask the company to add a clause to your employment contract that defines a minimum credit in the event you contributed for a certain amount of time.
If the company declines to give you due credit, you should define some kind of acceptable compensation in lieu.
If the company refuses to agree to this clause, they you get to make an informed decision about how important credits are to you.
(DISCLAIMER: I Am Not A Lawyer)
Do we really need to exploit weak negotiation skills and perpetuate this type of notion in the gaming industry?
If the company refuses to agree to this clause, [then] you get to make an informed decision about how important credits are to you.
Do we need to present such false dilemmas to justify non-inclusion in credits?
This is very much an issue of corporate values, what lengths is one willing to go in order to achieve their goals? Do we knowingly commission unfair trade (like a year's worth of crunch with no inclusion in the credits) and waive all responsibility without making efforts to operate by other means?
I have lots of major hunks of code in games I wasn't credited for. Credit was the rare exception. I think I've had manual credit twice. (The Fords credited me on The Horde 'cause they are damn nice guys.)
Honestly, the picture Im getting of the LA Noire team is a bunch of whiners.
I suspect management made that situation. Whenever there is a failure of teamwork its a management failure, but there are still more and less classy ways of dealing with it.
The industry is small, people who matter will know who you are and what you have done. They will also know what attitude your bring.
Edited 2 times. Last edit by Jeffrey Kesselman on 29th June 2011 3:02am